SDCC 2012 | S8 spoilers
Jul. 18th, 2012 02:13 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
galatheaMost people are probably aware that, as usual, a row of S8 spoilers were released at the Comic-Con in San Diego last weekend, and I just had to get some thoughts about those spoilers off my chest. Please be aware that this is highly spoilery for S8, so continue at your own risk.
I admit, after reading through most of the Supernatural interviews and panels from last weekend, I kind of went into a meltdown of massive proportions. I haven’t been this miserable and depressed for a long time, and since I am still upset several days later, I decided to vent a little – and maybe make some rationalization attempts. I was frustrated right from the start, when it became clear that S8 would see a return of the heaven & hell storyline, a part of the mythology that, in my humble opinion, has become truly tiresome and repetitive at this point. I had high hopes that the writers would use the opportunity to finish what Sera Gamble had started these past two years, namely a gradual disengagement from the angel and demon mythology that dominated the mytharc for five years. Alas, the writers decided to march into the opposite direction. But well, ultimately I don’t care about the mytharc, so I was willing to accept this turn of events, as long as the emotional arcs for Sam and Dean would be satisfying. Everyone who reads my episode reviews will know that I was highly optimistic after the S7 finale, because it opened up so many intriguing possibilities for the character arcs next season. However, almost everything the writers and producers revealed about Sam and Dean’s time apart and subsequent reunion was the opposite of what I had imagined, which, honestly, I could have lived with, if the writers had presented a scenario that I find even remotely engaging – but instead the spoilers read like my worst nightmare come true.
So, here’s a short summary of the spoilers in question: Apparently, about a year will have passed since Sam and Dean defeated Dick Roman, and while Dean was in purgatory, Sam quit hunting and returned to a civilian life. With no leads to go on in regard to Dean’s whereabouts, and with all his friends and family dead, Sam seemingly decided that he has given enough to the cause and successfully builds a new life for himself. When Dean returns from purgatory – he apparently made a deal with one of the monsters he met – he finds Sam settled and content and is unsurprisingly hurt when he learns that Sam never even looked for him. They hit the road again for some kind of 'quest', the details of which have yet to be revealed though.
Sounds familiar? That’s because it’s basically a rehash of the beginning of S6, only with reversed roles for the brothers. Apart from the repetitiveness of it all, the idea of Sam simply abandoning his brother because he doesn’t know where to look is so ridiculous, I can’t wrap my head around it. In fact, the idea is so outrageously out of character for Sam, that I can’t quite believe the writers would honestly think it is a valid scenario for S8. I will not deny that the writers came up with some questionable ideas over the years, but whatever their shortcomings in general, their character work remained relatively steady. Now, it’s no secret that I lost my trust in the writers long ago. I may believe in Jeremy Carver’s ability to write the brothers well, but let’s face it, he has been away from the show for two years, and who knows if he is still as in touch with the characters as he used to be. However, there has always been one person who managed to retain my trust throughout the years, and that person is Robert Singer. Ever since I saw him and Eric Kripke argue about character-driven versus plot-driven approach to storytelling back at the S1 Paley festival – Kripke openly admitted that it was Singer who brought the depth to the characters, whereas he was mainly focused on the urban legends aspect – I trusted him to know what’s right for the characters, and it’s inconceivable that he would not see how problematic the abovementioned scenario is for the integrity of Sam’s character. So, this whole set-up has to be a misdirection, I have to believe that or I will not be able to watch S8.
My initial thought was that Sam had somehow convinced himself that Dean is truly dead. I think it’s the only way Sam would be able to get enough closure to move on with his life. However, apparently Sam tells his brother upon his return that he didn’t know where Dean was and hence moved on – and honestly, that makes no sense. Back in Time after Time, when Dean tackled Chronos and vanished into thin air, Sam was perfectly capable of deducing that Dean was sucked into the past with Chronos, and the situation with Dick Roman in Survival of the Fittest wasn’t any different. Sam knows that, upon death, monsters return to purgatory, so it’s not even a leap to come to the conclusion that Dean was sucked into purgatory with the leviathan leader. Moreover, Crowley made no secret of the fact that he knows something about the side-effects of the anti-leviathan weapon, and surely, Sam wouldn’t rest before he knows what that something was. Sam also knows that it is possible to open a door to purgatory without letting every monster in it out. H. P. Lovecraft proved that. Now, I would understand that, after everything the brothers went through these last couple of years, Sam would be hesitant to open a door to another dimension, not knowing what horrors he might unleash on the world in the process. He knows better than that by now. I can see him retire from hunting in order to dedicate himself to the task of finding a way to get Dean back without starting another apocalypse, but for Sam to simply throw the towel right from the start is simply unimaginable. That’s just not who Sam is.
So, there has to be another explanation for Sam’s behaviour. Now, back in S6, when Crowley and Castiel plotted to open purgatory, Castiel’s goals have always been clear, but we never really learned what Crowley hoped to gain from their plan. I have no doubt that he pursued interests of his own though, and when Castiel betrayed him, those plans were obviously thwarted. In S7, Crowley laid low, no doubt plotting his comeback, and he is not stupid. He knows that Sam and Dean threw a wrench into every single plan concocted by angels, demons or leviathans, and he has been on their blacklist for quite some time now. So he has every reason to believe that he will have them on his tail as soon as he sets whatever plan in motion. Of course, he could simply kill the brothers to get them out of his way, but the Winchesters have a habit of coming back from the dead. Heck, they are even on a first-name basis with Death himself, so he might have come to the conclusion that a different strategy will yield better results. The first step would be to separate the brothers, obviously, and their reliance on his blood for the anti-leviathan weapon provided Crowley with a unique opportunity to get rid of one (or even both) of them. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had tempered with the blood – maybe he added a little spell work to make sure that the weapon had the intended side-effect – but maybe he simply knew that the weapon would allow him to kill two birds with one stone. Still, even on his own Sam would probably be capable enough to cross Crowley’s plans, so he had to get him out of the way as well.
So, I think it is entirely possible that he offered Sam a pact, namely Crowley’s help with Dean’s situation in exchange for Sam turning a blind eye to Crowley’s activities by retiring from the hunt. For obvious reasons, pacts with demons are a sore topic for Sam, so Crowley would have had to have a very convincing argument to get Sam to agree to a cooperation. The idea of a pact between Crowley and Sam is based on one of the exchanges between the brothers in the S8 opener. Apparently, Dean asks Sam if he wasn’t paying attention to the strange things happening around the country, and Sam evades Dean’s question by telling him that there have been others hunters out there to take care of things. That just doesn’t sound like Sam at all, especially if we assume that those 'strange things' refer to more than just the normal supernatural activity. Something major is going on and that’s when Sam decides to quit the life? I don’t think so. Those 'strange things' that are happening around the country could very well be connected to Crowley’s activities; activities he knew would draw Sam’s attention as a hunter, which is why he wanted Sam out of the picture in the first place. Of course, Sam would hesitate to tell Dean about a pact like that, either because he is bound by a promise to Crowley, or because he feels too guilty and is afraid that it will remind Dean of Sam’s collaboration with Ruby. So that would explain his rather dissatisfactory attempts to explain himself to Dean.
I know, I’m making an awful lot of assumptions based on some very vague spoilers, but I have to rationalise these spoilers somehow to make the next two and a half months bearable. The thought that the writers might assassinate my favourite character on TV for no good reason just makes me physically ill. Maybe my worries are entirely unfounded and it works out just fine. After all, I had a major meltdown due to the spoilers for S6 as well, and then the season opener just put all my worries to rest. No matter how things turn out in the end though, all those spoilers sound suspiciously like a rehash of S4 and S6 themes, and I have to wonder why the team even decided to come back for another year if they are just going to tread old waters again and again. I hope that I will regain my enthusiasm for the next season, because otherwise it will severely mess with my motivation to write or make art for the rest of the hiatus.
I admit, after reading through most of the Supernatural interviews and panels from last weekend, I kind of went into a meltdown of massive proportions. I haven’t been this miserable and depressed for a long time, and since I am still upset several days later, I decided to vent a little – and maybe make some rationalization attempts. I was frustrated right from the start, when it became clear that S8 would see a return of the heaven & hell storyline, a part of the mythology that, in my humble opinion, has become truly tiresome and repetitive at this point. I had high hopes that the writers would use the opportunity to finish what Sera Gamble had started these past two years, namely a gradual disengagement from the angel and demon mythology that dominated the mytharc for five years. Alas, the writers decided to march into the opposite direction. But well, ultimately I don’t care about the mytharc, so I was willing to accept this turn of events, as long as the emotional arcs for Sam and Dean would be satisfying. Everyone who reads my episode reviews will know that I was highly optimistic after the S7 finale, because it opened up so many intriguing possibilities for the character arcs next season. However, almost everything the writers and producers revealed about Sam and Dean’s time apart and subsequent reunion was the opposite of what I had imagined, which, honestly, I could have lived with, if the writers had presented a scenario that I find even remotely engaging – but instead the spoilers read like my worst nightmare come true.
So, here’s a short summary of the spoilers in question: Apparently, about a year will have passed since Sam and Dean defeated Dick Roman, and while Dean was in purgatory, Sam quit hunting and returned to a civilian life. With no leads to go on in regard to Dean’s whereabouts, and with all his friends and family dead, Sam seemingly decided that he has given enough to the cause and successfully builds a new life for himself. When Dean returns from purgatory – he apparently made a deal with one of the monsters he met – he finds Sam settled and content and is unsurprisingly hurt when he learns that Sam never even looked for him. They hit the road again for some kind of 'quest', the details of which have yet to be revealed though.
Sounds familiar? That’s because it’s basically a rehash of the beginning of S6, only with reversed roles for the brothers. Apart from the repetitiveness of it all, the idea of Sam simply abandoning his brother because he doesn’t know where to look is so ridiculous, I can’t wrap my head around it. In fact, the idea is so outrageously out of character for Sam, that I can’t quite believe the writers would honestly think it is a valid scenario for S8. I will not deny that the writers came up with some questionable ideas over the years, but whatever their shortcomings in general, their character work remained relatively steady. Now, it’s no secret that I lost my trust in the writers long ago. I may believe in Jeremy Carver’s ability to write the brothers well, but let’s face it, he has been away from the show for two years, and who knows if he is still as in touch with the characters as he used to be. However, there has always been one person who managed to retain my trust throughout the years, and that person is Robert Singer. Ever since I saw him and Eric Kripke argue about character-driven versus plot-driven approach to storytelling back at the S1 Paley festival – Kripke openly admitted that it was Singer who brought the depth to the characters, whereas he was mainly focused on the urban legends aspect – I trusted him to know what’s right for the characters, and it’s inconceivable that he would not see how problematic the abovementioned scenario is for the integrity of Sam’s character. So, this whole set-up has to be a misdirection, I have to believe that or I will not be able to watch S8.
My initial thought was that Sam had somehow convinced himself that Dean is truly dead. I think it’s the only way Sam would be able to get enough closure to move on with his life. However, apparently Sam tells his brother upon his return that he didn’t know where Dean was and hence moved on – and honestly, that makes no sense. Back in Time after Time, when Dean tackled Chronos and vanished into thin air, Sam was perfectly capable of deducing that Dean was sucked into the past with Chronos, and the situation with Dick Roman in Survival of the Fittest wasn’t any different. Sam knows that, upon death, monsters return to purgatory, so it’s not even a leap to come to the conclusion that Dean was sucked into purgatory with the leviathan leader. Moreover, Crowley made no secret of the fact that he knows something about the side-effects of the anti-leviathan weapon, and surely, Sam wouldn’t rest before he knows what that something was. Sam also knows that it is possible to open a door to purgatory without letting every monster in it out. H. P. Lovecraft proved that. Now, I would understand that, after everything the brothers went through these last couple of years, Sam would be hesitant to open a door to another dimension, not knowing what horrors he might unleash on the world in the process. He knows better than that by now. I can see him retire from hunting in order to dedicate himself to the task of finding a way to get Dean back without starting another apocalypse, but for Sam to simply throw the towel right from the start is simply unimaginable. That’s just not who Sam is.
So, there has to be another explanation for Sam’s behaviour. Now, back in S6, when Crowley and Castiel plotted to open purgatory, Castiel’s goals have always been clear, but we never really learned what Crowley hoped to gain from their plan. I have no doubt that he pursued interests of his own though, and when Castiel betrayed him, those plans were obviously thwarted. In S7, Crowley laid low, no doubt plotting his comeback, and he is not stupid. He knows that Sam and Dean threw a wrench into every single plan concocted by angels, demons or leviathans, and he has been on their blacklist for quite some time now. So he has every reason to believe that he will have them on his tail as soon as he sets whatever plan in motion. Of course, he could simply kill the brothers to get them out of his way, but the Winchesters have a habit of coming back from the dead. Heck, they are even on a first-name basis with Death himself, so he might have come to the conclusion that a different strategy will yield better results. The first step would be to separate the brothers, obviously, and their reliance on his blood for the anti-leviathan weapon provided Crowley with a unique opportunity to get rid of one (or even both) of them. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had tempered with the blood – maybe he added a little spell work to make sure that the weapon had the intended side-effect – but maybe he simply knew that the weapon would allow him to kill two birds with one stone. Still, even on his own Sam would probably be capable enough to cross Crowley’s plans, so he had to get him out of the way as well.
So, I think it is entirely possible that he offered Sam a pact, namely Crowley’s help with Dean’s situation in exchange for Sam turning a blind eye to Crowley’s activities by retiring from the hunt. For obvious reasons, pacts with demons are a sore topic for Sam, so Crowley would have had to have a very convincing argument to get Sam to agree to a cooperation. The idea of a pact between Crowley and Sam is based on one of the exchanges between the brothers in the S8 opener. Apparently, Dean asks Sam if he wasn’t paying attention to the strange things happening around the country, and Sam evades Dean’s question by telling him that there have been others hunters out there to take care of things. That just doesn’t sound like Sam at all, especially if we assume that those 'strange things' refer to more than just the normal supernatural activity. Something major is going on and that’s when Sam decides to quit the life? I don’t think so. Those 'strange things' that are happening around the country could very well be connected to Crowley’s activities; activities he knew would draw Sam’s attention as a hunter, which is why he wanted Sam out of the picture in the first place. Of course, Sam would hesitate to tell Dean about a pact like that, either because he is bound by a promise to Crowley, or because he feels too guilty and is afraid that it will remind Dean of Sam’s collaboration with Ruby. So that would explain his rather dissatisfactory attempts to explain himself to Dean.
I know, I’m making an awful lot of assumptions based on some very vague spoilers, but I have to rationalise these spoilers somehow to make the next two and a half months bearable. The thought that the writers might assassinate my favourite character on TV for no good reason just makes me physically ill. Maybe my worries are entirely unfounded and it works out just fine. After all, I had a major meltdown due to the spoilers for S6 as well, and then the season opener just put all my worries to rest. No matter how things turn out in the end though, all those spoilers sound suspiciously like a rehash of S4 and S6 themes, and I have to wonder why the team even decided to come back for another year if they are just going to tread old waters again and again. I hope that I will regain my enthusiasm for the next season, because otherwise it will severely mess with my motivation to write or make art for the rest of the hiatus.
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no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 12:36 pm (UTC)We'll have a proper talk on Sunday. You can vent at me and I'll make soothing noises and fail to come up with any helpful rationalisations. *G*
Show does like its symmetry, doesn't it - that's how I'd explain the decision to have Sam's reaction to Dean's disappearance mirroring Dean's reaction to Sam ending up in Lucifer's cage. But I'd still be hesitant to read too much into any spoilers at this stage, as a bare overview rarely gives any solid insight into how anything will play out on screen - everything that sounds so alarming might well become understandable once we see how it plays. Only time will tell. But that's no comfort to you, I know! The only real solution I can suggest is to stop reading spoilers...
no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 12:53 pm (UTC)But well, the situation with Sam in Lucifer's cage was entirely different. It was Sam's choice to jump into the cage with the knowledge that he will not come back. Dean knew where Sam was and even though he gave his promise to leave it be, we know that he searched for a way to get Sam out anyway. Lucifer's cage was supposed to be impenetrable, purgatory is most certainly not, and apparently Sam can't even be bothered to find out where Dean is. Argh ...
I know that it's possible that I am totally overreacting, but that's just the effect this damn show has on me. /sigh
no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 01:37 pm (UTC)It may not play out on screen anything like it sounds in context-free spoiler snippets, though. Pre-season spoilers are often very misleading.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 01:39 pm (UTC)I do have a faint hope that someone among TPTB will come across some of the comments detailing how this doesn't make sense, realize that no, it really doesn't, and do some energetic retconning.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:10 pm (UTC)*sigh*
no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:32 pm (UTC)In the meantime, try not to fret. Tall order, I know! But if you give yourself an ulcer waiting for S8, you won't be able to enjoy it whether it is good or bad!
no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 02:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-10 08:55 pm (UTC)I loved Dean, really really did and there are moments in the show where I still do but their killing him and it with their stagnant writing.
Sam, I've loved Sam since the first episode... but the writers are determined to undermine his character any way they can. This idea that Sam would give up on Dean when that's never been the case is just laughable.
Yes, I'm hoping that they will do some very 'energetic retconning'.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-10 10:07 pm (UTC)I really had such high hopes that the writers would move Dean's character forwards in S7. In the first half of the season, they really made an effort to openly address many of the issues that hold Dean back, so I thought they were moving towards a resolution for Dean. Alas, Dean's arc came to nothing, and that was one of the biggest disappointments of the season for me. Yes, depression is cyclic in nature and Dean didn't have many positive moments in his life to counteract it, so it's not entirely unrealistic that he is stuck in an emotional down, but storytelling-wise the writers don't do the character (or the audience) any favours by keeping him there.
I've loved Sam since the first episode... but the writers are determined to undermine his character any way they can.
Oh, that is so true. For years now, Dean is the primary point of view of the show and that constantly undermines the validity of Sam's perspective. Even in situations where Sam is actually a victim - like in S6, when he was soulless - the writers seem unwilling to refrain from playing him as the 'bad brother' for a considerable time of the season - just for the sake of mystery and for shock value. I wouldn't complain if they would alternate between the brothers, but it's always Sam who is 'wrong' and Dean who is suffering.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-11 07:37 am (UTC)Yes to this, I'm so tired of seeing Dean tired and down, I understand fully that he has every reason to be so but I'm sick and tired of having to watch it. It's killing his character literally I find myself cringing any time Dean is serious for fear that it will turn into a 'how my life sucks' moment complete with pinched man pain face... ugh! The writer either have Dean unbearably depressed/apathetic/preachy or they completely undermine his intelegence, he can't be smart and funny...
Even in situations where Sam is actually a victim - like in S6, when he was soulless - the writers seem unwilling to refrain from playing him as the 'bad brother' for a considerable time of the season - just for the sake of mystery and for shock value. I wouldn't complain if they would alternate between the brothers, but it's always Sam who is 'wrong' and Dean who is suffering.
Again sooo this. The writers are always making Sam the 'wrong' or 'uncaring' Winchester, like Dean hasn't done plenty of things that are wrong... Somehow the entire apacolypse got pushed off on Sam when it was pretty much everyone's fault, both fo the brothers chose other people over each other. Dean chose Cas and heaven over Sam. Sam chose Ruby and vengeance... But it was Dean's actions in the first place that started the ball (Mary and John's too) Cas helped out, Sam just did what everyone and the intel was telling him to do... this in MOP wasn't Sam's fault anymore than it was Dean's. But for some reason Sam is saddled with starting the end of the world. There was plenty of blame on both sides...
Hell, Stanford for some reason is bone of bitterness in the fandom, Sam did something completely normal, right and healthy by breaking away from his family... but somehow this became him 'abandoning' Dean. Which I never thought was the case. It's so frustrating to see this ugly cycle start all over again... Dean is the 'loyal' brother, Sam well Sam's the 'disloyal unloving' brother.
I hope against hope the writer will get their head out of their butts and write for goodness sakes, do something different beside beating the dead horse some more.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-11 09:00 am (UTC)I get that the writers can't just return Dean to his S1 persona, but they don't even make an effort to break him out of the self-destructive cycle, instead they perpetuate it. At this point it doesn't make Dean more sympathetic though.
Dean chose Cas and heaven over Sam. Sam chose Ruby and vengeance.
Yes, this! It really makes me sad that so many fans seem to miss the fact that Dean was as much manipulated by the angels - and, yes, that means Cas, too, on occasion - as Sam was manipulated by Ruby. And yet it is Sam who gets all the blame for the situation in S4 - not only the apocalypse, but the decline of their relationship as well. Dean at least acknowledged his own part in starting the apocalypse, but his part in their interpersonal problems was never truly acknowledged by either of them. Oh, and it annoys the hell out of me that Castiel was never even once held accountable for his own misguided actions at the end of S4 - instead he was lauded as Sam and Dean's best friend. *is bitter*
Hell, Stanford for some reason is bone of bitterness in the fandom
Oh my, don't get me started on the whole 'Sam abandoned Dean when he went to Stanford' crap. A lot of fans seem to overlook that Dean made a choice at the time as well - if Dean really needed Sam that badly, he could have gone with him, he could have taken his brother's side against John, but he didn't. And yet, he is still the loyal one in fandom. We know that Dean loved hunting and that it was his dream to hunt with his family and nobody expects him to give up on that dream, but everyone seems to expect from Sam to give up on his, as if Sam's dream wasn't equally as valid as Dean's. Moreover, as you rightly point out, the strive for independence is a healthy step in the development of a young adult. Sam's decision to leave was the decision of a young man who knew what's best for him - and that is something Dean could actually learn from. The whole situation really has nothing to do with love. I mean, since when does a child that leaves home stop loving his parents? The notion that true love means self-sacrifice is totally twisted. Besides, fandoms tendency to paint Dean as the victim in that scenario is actually undercut in canon. Yes, Dean hated to be without Sam, but he also admitted that he was proud of him for following his dreams. I'd like to think of Dean as more generous as fandom at large seems to do.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-13 06:18 am (UTC)So this. I too understand that the writers can't wave their magic wand and poof! Dean is magically cured, but like you, I would love to see him take steps to get into a healthy state of mind. Especially when everyone around Dean is going through if not the same then more crap than Dean himself. Dean wasn't the only one who has had their life.
a. turned upside down by the loss of a 'normal' existance
b. lost loved ones
c. been in hell
d. found life at time unbearable
And yet the writers keep Dean down when everyone else has bounced back from worse no less.
I don't get why writers and fans understand this.
if Dean really needed Sam that badly, he could have gone with him, he could have taken his brother's side against John, but he didn't. And yet, he is still the loyal one in fandom
Fans coveniently ignore this point, Dean stayed with John, Sam in season 1 felt just as betrayed by Dean's choosing to stay as Dean felt by Sam's choosing to leave. At one point I believe Sam accuses Dean of never calling and Dean reminds him that the phone line opporates both ways...
I assume this meant that both of them kept themselves distant from one another.
Sam's decision to leave was the decision of a young man who knew what's best for him - and that is something Dean could actually learn from. The whole situation really has nothing to do with love. I mean, since when does a child that leaves home stop loving his parents? The notion that true love means self-sacrifice is totally twisted. Besides, fandoms tendency to paint Dean as the victim in that scenario is actually undercut in canon. Yes, Dean hated to be without Sam, but he also admitted that he was proud of him for following his dreams
I whole agree with this with my whole heart.
Sam was making a decision that had nothing to do with love but everything to do with him needing to grow up and become a man. He didn't love Dean or John any less but felt that he was no longer welcome in their lives due to John's ultimatum and Dean taking their Dad's side.
And yes, Dean could really, really take a few pointers on growing as a individual because quite frankly nothing good has come out of either his or Sam's codependant relationship and their inability to let the other one go. It's been destructive to everyone around them not just each other. Dean's inability to not only let Sam go (aka die) and make his own decisions was some of what fueled the dreaded S4.
The reasons their relationship was so fubar in that season was in part because of Dean's handling of any decision that Sam made that Dean didn't agree with whether Sam was right or wrong... not saying that Sam didn't have his fair share of blame because he did but Dean's rejection of him and down right violent anger when questioned or disagreed wth was a good deal to blame.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-13 09:21 am (UTC)Well, yes, but of course that's because Dean's psychology is very different from Sam's. That's why the writers would actually have to address Dean's self-worth and abandonment issues first, before they can move the character forwards. Sam was allowed to grow up; he overcame his anger management and control issues and became more self-aware, resulting in a pretty well-adjusted person (for Winchester standards anyway). Dean was never allowed that kind of growth, and as long as he is isn't allowed to develop a more accurate self-image, he will never truly be able to move forward with his life.
At one point I believe Sam accuses Dean of never calling and Dean reminds him that the phone line opporates both ways. I assume this meant that both of them kept themselves distant from one another.
Hm, in Bugs Sam asks Dean why he never told him about John checking up on him in Stanford and Dean tells him that the phone works both way and that he could have picked up the phone. In the Pilot Dean also points out that Sam would likely not have picked up the phone if Dean would have called. That suggests to me that it was Sam who distanced himself. We know that Sam was at Stanford for 4 years, but that the brothers only stopped having contact for 2 of those 4 years, so I always assumed that either something happened between them or that, after a while, Sam found it too difficult to reconcile his old life with his new one and stopped calling.
He didn't love Dean or John any less but felt that he was no longer welcome in their lives due to John's ultimatum and Dean taking their Dad's side.
We don't exactly know that Dean took John's side. In fact, I think that he tried to stay neutral in their conflict, because if he alienated either of them, it would have been impossible for him to reason with them. I mean, in Dead Man's Blood, where John and Sam get into an argument, Dean tries to defuse their argument, careful not to take a side, and I assume that was his usual modus operandi. Even when they talk about the fight in Bugs, Dean is careful not to mention his own position in the matter. Now, I think it is unlikely that Dean actually agreed with John's ultimatum, but it's easy to see that, from Sam's perspective, Dean staying with John and not openly taking his brother's side was just as hurtful as Dean actually agreeing with John.
Dean's rejection of him and down right violent anger when questioned or disagreed with was a good deal to blame.
Yes. Sam's actions didn't take place in a vacuum. It's not that I blame Dean for being unable to adapt to the changes in Sam or to overcome his knee-jerk condemnation of Sam's powers and thus alienate his brother. Dean was traumatised, and Sam didn't exactly make it easy for Dean to reconnect with him. I would just like to see it acknowledged that the loss of trust and closeness between the brothers has been multi-causal and can't just be blamed on Sam alone.
no subject
Date: 2012-09-13 05:34 pm (UTC)Yes I agree that Dean's psyche is very different from Sam's, but it's not the fact that he's different that bothers me. In this case it's the writers fault completely.
Any progress Dean's character makes seems to be ignored or reversed it always feels like every step forward equals two steps back.
In Fallen Idols when Sam and Dean talk and come to their semi, but never fully realized agreement that their relationship needed to change I was all excited. This never went any where because the writers for some reason will never let Dean grow up as a person. He's had plenty of time, plenty of opportunity to actually grow. The writers have never allowed this. Dean must alway be either self sacrificing, the voice of morality. When Dean's being funny it's generally at Dean's expense, he must always play the martyr whether he's really the martyr or not.
But the writers unwillingness to make changes in Dean leaves his character feeling just stagnant and to a point infantile, again other characters with less screen time, and opportunities have been allowed to move past their pain. Why can't Dean? Why is his pain so much more accute, everyone of he characters has suffered more of the same but Dean is left in this limbo like state never allowed to move forward. It's frustrating.
Even when they talk about the fight in Bugs, Dean is careful not to mention his own position in the matter. Now, I think it is unlikely that Dean actually agreed with John's ultimatum, but it's easy to see that, from Sam's perspective, Dean staying with John and not openly taking his brother's side was just as hurtful as Dean actually agreeing with John.
I agree that Dean didn't agree with John's ulitmatum, I also agree that Dean probably didn't take a side. Like you said his not agreeing was probably just as hurtful as if he had agreed with John. But later on with Dean's 'you abandoned your family' stick I think that it was clear that he thought Sam should have stayed, given up on what he felt was right for him.
Again I blame John for this, I can only imagine how many time Dean was made to feel guilty for wanting more, he wasn't a 'good son' if he questioned or asked for more from their life than he was given. If Dean had dreams for himself he shelved them because they probably made him feel like he was being 'disloyal' or again a 'bad son'. Dean's view of love and loyalty is disfunctional to the extreme.
It's not that I blame Dean for being unable to adapt to the changes in Sam or to overcome his knee-jerk condemnation of Sam's powers and thus alienate his brother. Dean was traumatised, and Sam didn't exactly make it easy for Dean to reconnect with him. I would just like to see it acknowledged that the loss of trust and closeness between the brothers has been multi-causal and can't just be blamed on Sam alone.
I don't blame Dean for not being able to adapt as you stated he was traumatised.
But unfortunately Dean's reactions to Sam and Sam changing as a person can't be blamed on his time spent in hell and the trauma suffered.
S3 Dean freaks out because Sam is changing on him... because Sam becomes harder, colder and more ruthless never mind the reasons. Dean acted like Sam should have just popped back from the last two years and the fact that Dean was going to die and go to hell for him.
S4 Dean's anger at first is that Sam seems to have done just fine, then it's Sam's different, he's not the person he used to be he's not adjusted in a way that make Dean feel like he was living up to Dean's sacrifice. A sacrifice that wasn't wanted or asked for and bitterly resented...
If Sam adjusts too well Dean feels like Sam doesn't love him enough. If Sam doesn't adjust well, then he's thrown Dean's sacrifice away. Sam can't win for losing or even win for winning.
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Date: 2012-09-14 10:01 am (UTC)Well, I think Dean's character is trapped in its own success. Dean has always been the most popular character in Supernatural and he became even more so, when he turned into damaged, tortured woobie!Dean from S2 onwards. Sometimes I think the writers keep Dean in this state of limbo because they are afraid to alienate the audience by allowing him to actually grow up and change. Of course, I think at this point even the most die-hard woobie!Dean fans would rather like to see him move past his issues, but it seems the writers didn't get that memo yet. /sigh
But later on with Dean's 'you abandoned your family' stick I think that it was clear that he thought Sam should have stayed, given up on what he felt was right for him.
I think Dean's feelings on the subject were pretty complicated.
a) Part of Dean resented Sam for doing what Dean himself was unable to do, namely following his own dreams. From Skin we know that Dean had dreams of his own, dreams he gave up because he felt that John needed him. To put John's needs above his own was a choice, of course, and it's not like Dean didn't genuinely love hunting, but I think sometimes he felt trapped in his life nonetheless. He - well, the shapeshifter!Dean - admitted that he was jealous of Sam's new life and that fuelled Dean's resentment, especially at the beginning of the show, where they were still trying to find a new footing in their relationship.
b) Part of Dean was personally hurt by Sam's decision to leave, because with his self-worth and abandonment issues he saw Sam's departure as a personal rejection, as a lack of love and loyalty to him. Dark Side of the Moon clearly shows that Dean was unable to separate Sam's issues with John and the lifestyle he forced on them from himself, and I think that, till the present day, Dean has still difficulties to understand that Sam does not reject him, personally, when he disagrees with Dean or chooses to go a different path.
c) Part of Dean genuinely admired Sam's strive for independence and his ability to put his own needs ahead of everybody elses if necessary. Because, inherently, that is not a bad thing at all. To recognise and act on our own needs is a healthy expression of self-preservation. Of course, if taken to the extreme, it can result in selfishness without any regard for others, but that's not who Sam is. He knows when to put himself first and when to put others first, and I think on some level Dean knows and appreciates that.
So, overall Dean's feelings were complex and messy, and it really depends on his state of mind which one of those emotions gets the upper hand when the topic of Stanford comes up between them. :)
But unfortunately Dean's reactions to Sam and Sam changing as a person can't be blamed on his time spent in hell and the trauma suffered.
Yeah, that is true. Dean has a hard time accepting change in Sam. Again, that has multiple reasons, but I think the main reason is: Sam is Dean's constant in life, and since Dean defines himself relative to Sam, his status quo is threatend when Sam changes. Ultimately, it forces Dean to change as well, and I think it is established by now that Dean struggles with that. Even though he has acknowledged on several occasions that he needs to establish a new self-identity for himself, there has been little actual progress on that front, partly because he doesn't know how and partly because he is afraid of change.
A sacrifice that wasn't wanted or asked for and bitterly resented.
Oh man, I am always miffed about fandoms tendency to laud Dean's sacrifice as the ultimate expression of love - even though Dean himself branded 'sacrifices' like that as selfish and hypocritical himself - and to deny Sam the right to be angry with Dean or hold him partly responsible for pushing Sam towards darkness. Dean even asks Sam not to be angry with him, and how can Sam deny him in that situation, so he is forced to swallow his anger and resentment - and, no doubt, that plays a big part in Sam's meaner moments in S4.
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Date: 2012-09-14 05:27 pm (UTC)Part of Dean resented Sam for doing what Dean himself was unable to do, namely following his own dreams... Part of Dean was personally hurt by Sam's decision to leave, because with his self-worth and abandonment issues he saw Sam's departure as a personal rejection, as a lack of love and loyalty to him...Part of Dean genuinely admired Sam's strive for independence and his ability to put his own needs ahead of everybody elses if necessary. Because, inherently, that is not a bad thing at all...
All lovely and great points, I feel like this is all very true for Dean, on one hand he knows what Sam did wasn't 'wrong' on the other hand his emotions lead him to resent and feel insecure. I loved the way you broke this down.
Dean defines himself relative to Sam, his status quo is threatend when Sam changes
Yes, this is so true it just makes it hard to watch is all.
Oh man, I am always miffed about fandoms tendency to laud Dean's sacrifice as the ultimate expression of love - even though Dean himself branded 'sacrifices' like that as selfish and hypocritical himself - and to deny Sam the right to be angry with Dean or hold him partly responsible for pushing Sam towards darkness. Dean even asks Sam not to be angry with him, and how can Sam deny him in that situation, so he is forced to swallow his anger and resentment - and, no doubt, that plays a big part in Sam's meaner moments in S4.
So this.
I've often found that this point is over looked in the fandom or even the long turn effects this had on Sam.
Sam's 'heaven's (think they were to some extent messed with but...) were all instances where Sam himself was independant, strong and needing no help. Sam's sense of self in a lot of ways in not only defined by his brotherhood with Dean but by his sense of independance. Dean took that from him. Dean took Sam's choice to die on his own terms from Sam, and then demanded that Sam let him (Dean) die for what he valued.
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Date: 2012-09-15 09:11 am (UTC)Yeah, Sam’s central themes throughout the show have always been choice and control. Sam has always been driven by the need to escape the confines of a heteronomous life and establish an identity of his own. The feeling that his path in life has already been mapped out for him by others, motivated Sam to fight for his right to make his own choices and take the control over his life back. It's an integral part of who he is, and that makes him such an interesting character.
Thanks for the discussion. :) It's always nice to meet a fan who recognises and appreciates the complexities of Sam's story. Lord knows, I love Dean dearly, but whenever I venture out into fandom, I feel that too many fans only ever consider Dean's side of the story and fail to understand or appreciate Sam's side completely.
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Date: 2012-09-16 06:13 am (UTC)I love your reviews they make me look at things from a different angle at times.
Lord knows, I love Dean dearly, but whenever I venture out into fandom, I feel that too many fans only ever consider Dean's side of the story and fail to understand or appreciate Sam's side completely.
Yes, I love Dean dearly as well, part of my problem with the writers of the show is how they've treated his character because he is great and for most of the series he's been left to rust.
When I venture into fandom I feel like there is such a biased view of Sam and Dean.
Dean being good and Sam being bad or selfish.
This is frustrating because I see them both as being selfish and selfless, they're flawed and yet they do these amazing things in spite and sometimes because of these flaws.
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Date: 2012-07-18 02:14 pm (UTC)And for Sam to be settling down to a regular life and just letting Dean go, well like you I tell myself that there must be more to it! I'm hoping that if the show is explicitly calling attention to Dean being hurt at Sam not looking for him then that's supposed to be a hint that we're suppose to be aware that something isn't right there
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Date: 2012-07-18 02:27 pm (UTC)I really hope it's all a mislead. I hope it's like in S6, where I knew within minutes of seeing Sam onscreen in the season opener that something was completely off about him. I hope the S8 opener achieves something similar and gives us some subliminal hints that not everything is as it seems.
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Date: 2012-07-18 04:02 pm (UTC)This is why I am concerned about the show continuing on and on--because while they have been okay so far, I do worry they are running out of ideas and the quality decreasing until the show ends on a low note. Already I thought (despite a stronger start) that s7 for the most part was not as good and engaging as s6...:/
I disagree though that this would be straight up character assassination (though I hope it's something like your explanation here, which does make a lot of sense), more just somnething OOC/odd...to me a true character assassination is like Morgana on Merlin where the character does a complete 180 to the extent they are no longer recognizeable as the original character....or maybe that's just an extreme case.
we never really learned what Crowley hoped to gain from their plan.
He did say what he wanted though: souls, which given him more power in Hell as much as they give Castiel more power in heaven. One could say he might be lying I suppose (though his reaction to Cas when the latter says he will no longer give Crowley half the souls, or any souls, is telling IMO), but it was addressed pretty clearly.
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Date: 2012-07-18 05:11 pm (UTC)Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this, because if the scenario the writers depicted at SDCC is true, it is basically a complete 180 for Sam's character. There is simply no way that Sam would just say: "Hey, I have no idea where Dean is and what he's going through, and I can't really be bothered to try and find out, so let's buy a dog and settle down." How is that the same character who willingly accepted his hell trauma and risked death or insanity just so his brother is not alone in the world? If that's not character assassination, I don't know what is.
He did say what he wanted though: souls, which given him more power in Hell
Yes, I know that, but he is already king of hell, so I don't buy that that was really his only reason. What did he need that power for? I am sure in the end the souls have just been a means to an end, just like they were for Castiel, and I'd really like to know what that endgame was. :)
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Date: 2012-07-18 05:51 pm (UTC)Well Crowley noted that things were volatile down there and his grip as king of hell was not complete, so he wanted the extra firepower/reserves as insurance, or something to that effect, as I recall...
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Date: 2012-07-18 06:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-18 04:05 pm (UTC)I am sorry the news upset you - I understand your feelings very well. I've been there. *hugs*
I am sure there will be some kind of, uh, justification to Sam's behavior, though. Like at the beginning of s6 where his ridiculous decision not to tell Dean that he was back (that distressed me to no end when I read the spoilers) was later explained by lack of soul.
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Date: 2012-07-18 05:27 pm (UTC)Thanks. It really sucks sometimes to be so deeply emotionally invested in fictional characters. I gather you must be pretty annoyed, too, that so far there isn't even a mention of what happened to Castiel in all of this. *hugs* Anyway, I really, really have to cling to the hope that the writers would never, ever do something so massively disastrous to Sam's characterisation and that it is all a mislead. *crosses fingers*
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Date: 2012-07-18 06:50 pm (UTC)iswas the base of his personality, how he functioned. But, well.You know, I only just realized that indeed, I hadn't heard any spoilers regarding Castiel, I didn't notice before. I don't really care, to be honest.
I'm almost 100% positive it is a mislead. It's good you are still able to enjoy the show, I hope you'll soon learn something more positive about the new season. :)
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Date: 2012-07-18 07:34 pm (UTC)Heh, well, the good thing about your distance is that you don't have to worry anymore! *g*
Thanks for the optimism. I can use that at the moment. *hugs* Yeah, I still very deeply care about Sam and Dean - and always will, I am sure of that - even though I've come to be pretty indifferent about the mytharc and the mythology. :)
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Date: 2012-07-18 08:49 pm (UTC)Oh, I too care about Dean and Cas and Sam. This 'verse had been a part of my life for years, I can't just throw it all away. It's those strangers that have taken the boys' place that I'm indifferent to. (And yes, many of the decisions the writers have done on the mythology also could have been better, I agree.) *hugs*
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Date: 2012-07-18 09:30 pm (UTC)It's strange how some shows/characters can become such an integral part of one's emtional life, huh? My relationship with these brothers is longer than many RL relationships I had in my life. LOL 7 years (and counting) will be hard to get over, once the show comes to an end.
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Date: 2012-09-10 08:33 pm (UTC)The writers of this show are driving me insane with the rehashing of the same plot points but as you put it in reverse...
NO! This is all very wrong, Sam would at least exhaust every option before giving up, I can see him giving up on hunting... the job has taken everything from his family but give up on finding Dean? Never...
We've already done this oh, yeah S6 we don't need another repeat only with Dean's man tears added into the mix.
Crap!
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Date: 2012-09-10 09:49 pm (UTC)Yes, I have no problem buying that Sam would give up on hunting at this point. These last two seasons, Sam and Dean both argued that they can't leave the job because they can't leave their brother alone rather than because they still take satisfaction from the job. It's not Sam's quest for normality and peace that bothers me. In fact, it makes perfect sense for either brother to leave the life after everything they went through, but the notion that Sam would just throw his hands in the air and give up - especially so shortly after Dean's disappearance - is just ridiculous.
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Date: 2012-09-11 07:49 am (UTC)Yeah, I don't buy the notion of Sam giving up on Dean at all either, Sam went through 180+ years of hell memories even though he didn't 'have' to because his brother needed him. Sam's never given up on Dean, even when Dean seems to have given up on Sam. I just hate seeing the writers tear down Sam so Dean can have ANOTHER in a long line of angsty moments... Like there haven't been enough of those to last us a lifetime.
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Date: 2012-09-11 10:31 am (UTC)