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Review | 8x08 | Hunteri Heroici
Hunteri Heroici is Andrew Dabb’s first solo script for Supernatural. He usually collaborates with Daniel Loflin, his long-time writing partner, and I find it curious that they suspended their teamwork for this episode. Interestingly enough, I don’t think there are noticeable stylistic differences between Dabb’s work here and the scripts he wrote together with Loflin; maybe in their years as a writing team their individual styles amalgamated into one. Anyway, Hunteri Heroici is a mostly standalone episode that looks into the theme of escapism versus realism and how it pertains to Sam and Castiel’s stories in the past and present. Unfortunately, the episode also works with a rather wacky premise, and I think the resulting tonal shifts are somewhat detrimental to the overall effectiveness of the episode. Still, I liked the episode well enough. It is not terrible, but also not outstanding - so, basically, like most of the episodes this season.
Cartoon-style episodes, i.e. episodes in which cartoon-world physics are applied to a real-world scenario and/or live action characters are presented in animated form, have become somewhat of a popular trope in TV shows lately – Farscape, Fringe, Community or Eureka come to mind, for example – so it was only a matter of time until the Supernatural team would try their hands on one as well. Now, I have to admit that I am not exactly a fan of this particular trope, probably because I was never really into cartoons, not even as a child, but on occasion it does work for me, as for instance in Eureka’s Christmas episode Do You See What I See. Hunteri Heroici, however, gives me rather mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think the special effects in the episode are really well done – the beating heart in the teaser and the trick fight between Dean and Doctor Mahoney in particular stand out to me – and, taken by itself, the comedic scenes are very enjoyable. On the other hand, I feel that the constant tonal shifts, from absurd comedic moments to contemplative character moments and back, prevent either aspect of the episode from being truly effective. In that regard, the episode actually reminds me of Ben Edlund’s Wishful Thinking, as I have always felt that the brothers’ rather emotional storyline in that episode did not mesh well with the bizarre nature of the wishing-well plot. Overall, I think Hunteri Heroici would have worked a lot better for me, if the writers had settled for a straight forward comedy episode; they should have just embraced the absurd concept and run with it, like they did in The French Mistake or Clap Your Hands If You Believe.
Sam: "Look, it can be nice living in a dream world. It can be great. I know that. And you can hide and you can pretend all the crap out there doesn’t exist, but you can’t do it forever. Because, eventually, whatever it is you’re running from, it’ll find you. It’ll come along and it’ll punch you in the gut. And then – then you gotta wake up. Because if you don’t, then trying to keep that dream alive will destroy you. It will destroy everything."
Sam’s flashbacks in the episode give us further insight into the development of his life with Amelia, particularly into their domestic situation and Sam’s first meeting with Amelia’s father Stan. Apparently, the couple decided to move in together not long after they began their affair, but it is obvious that they are both not sure if they are moving too fast – and it shows. I mean, the fact that Amelia was too busy to take an active part in the move could be read as a sign of uncertainty on her part. And as for Sam, while he was clearly comfortable when he and Amelia were still living at the motel, he seems to feel incredibly out of place in their new home. He acts awkward, not only around Stan, but also around Amelia herself; his kisses look clumsy, his smiles are forced and his body language screams uneasiness. Of course, it does not help that Stan clearly disapproves of his daughter’s decision to play house with an almost stranger, and he has no qualms letting them feel it. He either ignores Sam's attempts at establishing a relationship or makes derisive comments. Still, I think Stan’s hostile behaviour is quite understandable. His daughter is in a fragile emotional state and Sam is not exactly the kind of boyfriend a father would choose for his daughter in this situation – a college drop-out with no prospects and obvious psychological problems of his own. It is only when Stan realises that Amelia is truly happy with Sam that he drops his judgmental attitude and makes an attempt to get to know Sam better, and from what little we see, I think Sam and Stan would eventually have gotten along like a house on fire.
However, the family get-together ends on a rather surprising note, when Amelia receives a phone call, informing her that her husband is alive, and I have to say, I did not see that one coming. I think this reveal opens up a row of new questions about the circumstances of Sam and Dean's reunion. I mean, in We Need To Talk About Kevin Sam left Amelia and drove up to Rufus’ old cabin where he met up with Dean, and at the time I assumed that Sam left because Dean managed to track him down and asked him to meet him there. However, if Don’s return was the trigger for Sam and Amelia’s break-up and Sam drove up to the cabin because he did not know where else to go, why was he not more surprised to find Dean there? And why was he so sure that Dean was, in fact, Dean and not an impostor of some kind? It really casts Sam and Dean’s reunion in the season opener in a completely new light. I also have to wonder if the fact that Don and Dean simultaneously returned to Amelia and Sam, respectively, is really a coincidence. The timing seems rather suspicious, and I ask myself if there is more to it than meets the eye.
I admit, these last couple of weeks I have not once seriously considered that Sam’s memories about Amelia might not be real, but Sam’s fervent speech about escaping into a dream world when life becomes too much, made me question the reliability of Sam’s memories for the first time – especially in light of the reveal about Dean’s erroneous memories just last episode. Of course, the dreamlike quality of the flashbacks gave cause for speculation about the reality of Sam’s memories right from the start, but the obvious parallels between Sam’s retreat into a civilian life with Amelia and Fred’s mental retreat into a cartoon world seem to substantiate those speculations further. Now, Sam is always incredibly vague when he talks about those first few months after Dean vanished, but from the little we do know it is obvious that he was incapable of coping with his loss in a level-headed manner. Only weeks prior to Dean’s disappearance Sam was terrified at the mere thought of losing Dean – the only person able to anchor him to reality – so the notion that Sam suffered from a mental breakdown when the unthinkable did happen does not seem too far-fetched in my opinion. In that context, there are two things worth noting about Sam’s flashbacks in Hunteri Heroici: Firstly, in the scene where Sam is doing the dishes with Stan, he starts to insistently rub the palm of his left hand at one point, a gesture very reminiscent of the time when he used pressure/pain on his left hand to dispel his hallucinations. Secondly, there is a strong emphasis on the fact that Sam and Amelia’s life is an utter mess, and that reminds me of Lucifer’s statement in Hello, Cruel World that Sam’s hallucinations have to be a mess or Sam would not believe that they were his life. All of this could indicate that Sam’s memories are not actually real – or, you know, it could simply mean that I read way too much into this.
While I would be thrilled beyond belief, if the writers would link Sam’s memories of his time with Amelia to his mental health problems in S7, the theory that Amelia herself is just one of Sam’s mental-break induced hallucinations is rather untenable. I mean, we know for a fact that Amelia is a real person, because she appears outside of Sam’s flashbacks, twice. First in the season opener, where Sam leaves her behind when he drives to Rufus’ cabin, and then again in Blood Brother, where Sam searches for information about Amelia on the internet. However, that does not necessarily exclude the possibility that Sam’s memories of his time with Amelia are unreliable. For example, it is possible that he knows her, but that the extent of their relationship is just a figment of his imagination. It is also possible that, just like Dean’s memories, Sam’s are sound for the most part and only a selective few of them are imaginary. And I still do not rule out the possibility that Naomi messed with Sam’s memories in order to protect her own agenda either. Of course, all this is pure speculation, and it is equally as possible that Sam’s story is exactly what it seems. Maybe Dean’s disappearance was just the last straw to break the camel’s back; maybe Sam simply could not cope with another stroke of fate and so he ran, until he found something to hold onto; maybe he needed to escape into the illusion of safety for a while in order to heal enough to make a start on looking for Dean, just like Dean needed to be with Lisa and Ben in order to go on with his life after Sam’s death. Admittedly, this last scenario appeals to me the least, even though I am able to rationalise Sam’s actions, but I still think we are far from knowing Sam’s whole story yet, so I hold out hope that a better explanation will come along eventually.
What else is noteworthy:
(1) You know, I start to wonder if maybe there is a rule that says Sam cannot be present when Dean and Castiel have a conversation. I mean, why does the heart-to-heart between Dean and Castiel have to take place while Sam is out and about, doing a significant part of the legwork for their case on his own? Similarly, last week Dean deliberately excluded Sam from his talk with Castiel for no discernible reason. After all, he already told Sam that he felt guilty for failing Castiel, so he had nothing to hide from him. Besides, if Sam had been present when Castiel showed Dean just how wrongly he remembered things between them, it would have given the brothers a starting point for a dialogue about similar misperceptions in their own relationship. Anyway, it is rather common that Sam, Dean and Castiel split up when they work together – with Dean & Castiel on one side and Sam on the other – and that undercuts the feeling that they are an actual team. Moreover, whenever Castiel is around, there is barely any interaction between Sam and Dean. With other characters, the writers seem perfectly capable of balancing the character dynamics. For example, when Bobby or Garth join the brothers on a hunt, it is never at the expense of quality time between Sam and Dean, and they usually interact with both brothers in equal measure. I really wished the writers would manage to do the same with Castiel as well, as it would make his presence a lot more enjoyable for me. That said, there is one thing I truly love about Castiel’s collaboration with Sam and Dean here, namely the way his cluelessness highlights Sam and Dean’s competence as hunters. Those moments at the morgue or during the witness interview, where Dean proudly points out Sam’s superior skills to Castiel, really warm my heart. ♥
(2) I know I have said it before, but I think it bears repeating: The complete lack of an actual reconciliation process between Castiel and Dean makes their current amiable interaction extremely frustrating to watch for me. I mean, we went from Dean angrily yelling at Castiel in Survival of The Fittest to Dean hugging Castiel in What’s Up, Tiger Mommy without any kind of adjustment period, and the fact that the writers simply returned Dean and Castiel’s relationship to the pre-S6 status without so much as a clarifying conversation between them irritates me to such a degree that scenes like the heart-to-heart between Dean and Castiel do nothing but aggravate me, regardless of their actual content. And little moments like Dean’s statement that he is thrilled to have Castiel back simply do not ring true for me under these circumstances. Overall, the writers went to great lengths to draw parallels between Sam and Castiel’s storylines, but where earning Dean’s forgiveness is concerned, Castiel seems to get preferential treatment for no discernible in-canon reason. The writers took shortcuts in the brothers’ relationship with Castiel before, but they really dropped the ball on this one. It seems to me like they want to have their cake and eat it, too. On the one hand, they do not want to let go of the character because he is a fan favourite, but on the other hand they cannot be bothered to actually give his storylines the attention they would need to make them work – and in the long run that is damaging not only to Castiel’s character, but also to Sam and Dean’s.
(3) The episode’s general theme of escaping into a dream world when facing reality seems too difficult to bear extends to Castiel as well. In Castiel’s case it is the inability of facing the devastation he caused in heaven, and he tries to escape by following in Sam and Dean’s footsteps and become a hunter. Now, while I do not doubt that Castiel genuinely wants to atone by helping people, it is clear that throwing himself into the hunt is also a means to get out of his own head for a while, and that is a very Winchester way of dealing with things. After all, Sam and Dean tend to throw themselves into the hunt as well, when they feel unable to confront their bigger issues. Of course, Castiel is just as out of place in the hunting world as Sam is in the normal world, not least because he simply does not seem to grasp the basic concept of human interaction, and in the end he takes a page from Sam’s book and realises that he has to stop running and confront his guilt head-on. Naturally, things are never easy and Castiel’s intention to return to heaven and make things right with his fellow angels is thwarted by Naomi, thus forcing him to make a new choice about what he wants to do with his life – and maybe that is an opportunity as well; an opportunity to truly define who he is, when he is not an emissary of heaven or Sam and Dean’s third wheel. By the way, I am a tad puzzled that rather than telling Castiel to return to Sam and Dean, Naomi tells him to do what he wants to do. What happened to Castiel spying on the brothers so he can report back to her?
(4) I admit, I am not a huge fan of John’s character, but I still find myself appreciative of the many references to John in this episode, mainly because I really like it when the show remembers its own history. I love the fact that Dean still uses John’s journal, even though he surely knows its contents by heart by now, and Castiel’s compliment regarding John’s writing is quite amusing, given that Dean complained about his father’s writing back in Asylum. I also love that Sam brings up John’s military background in an attempt to bond with Amelia’s father. Speaking of which, at first it struck me as rather odd that Sam would tell Stan the Impala was John’s car, because I believe both brothers have long come to think of the Impala as Dean’s. However, when Stan comments to Sam on the Impala, his general hostility up to that point has made Sam visibly uncomfortable around him, and since mentioning Dean would inevitably have steered the conversation towards Sam’s loss, it makes sense that he would choose to avoid the topic – he is simply not ready to show that kind of vulnerability around Stan at that point. Once the tension between them makes way for a more cordial relationship though, Sam brings up Dean on his own accord.
In conclusion: Like with so many episodes this season, I would not say that Hunteri Heroici is a bad episode, but it fails to engage me beyond the moments that pertain to Sam’s storyline. While the episode has some great character moments, they feel somewhat misplaced amidst the over-the-top humour – that is especially true for Sam’s flashbacks – and that affects my enjoyment to some degree. I think the cartoon-world premise has great comedic potential, and it would probably have worked fine for me if the writers had committed to the idea of a straightforward comedy episode, but this odd mix of the emotional and the absurd is just not particularly convincing to me. But well, I guess that has more to do with my own preferences and less with actual problems in the writing.
Cartoon-style episodes, i.e. episodes in which cartoon-world physics are applied to a real-world scenario and/or live action characters are presented in animated form, have become somewhat of a popular trope in TV shows lately – Farscape, Fringe, Community or Eureka come to mind, for example – so it was only a matter of time until the Supernatural team would try their hands on one as well. Now, I have to admit that I am not exactly a fan of this particular trope, probably because I was never really into cartoons, not even as a child, but on occasion it does work for me, as for instance in Eureka’s Christmas episode Do You See What I See. Hunteri Heroici, however, gives me rather mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think the special effects in the episode are really well done – the beating heart in the teaser and the trick fight between Dean and Doctor Mahoney in particular stand out to me – and, taken by itself, the comedic scenes are very enjoyable. On the other hand, I feel that the constant tonal shifts, from absurd comedic moments to contemplative character moments and back, prevent either aspect of the episode from being truly effective. In that regard, the episode actually reminds me of Ben Edlund’s Wishful Thinking, as I have always felt that the brothers’ rather emotional storyline in that episode did not mesh well with the bizarre nature of the wishing-well plot. Overall, I think Hunteri Heroici would have worked a lot better for me, if the writers had settled for a straight forward comedy episode; they should have just embraced the absurd concept and run with it, like they did in The French Mistake or Clap Your Hands If You Believe.
Sam: "Look, it can be nice living in a dream world. It can be great. I know that. And you can hide and you can pretend all the crap out there doesn’t exist, but you can’t do it forever. Because, eventually, whatever it is you’re running from, it’ll find you. It’ll come along and it’ll punch you in the gut. And then – then you gotta wake up. Because if you don’t, then trying to keep that dream alive will destroy you. It will destroy everything."
Sam’s flashbacks in the episode give us further insight into the development of his life with Amelia, particularly into their domestic situation and Sam’s first meeting with Amelia’s father Stan. Apparently, the couple decided to move in together not long after they began their affair, but it is obvious that they are both not sure if they are moving too fast – and it shows. I mean, the fact that Amelia was too busy to take an active part in the move could be read as a sign of uncertainty on her part. And as for Sam, while he was clearly comfortable when he and Amelia were still living at the motel, he seems to feel incredibly out of place in their new home. He acts awkward, not only around Stan, but also around Amelia herself; his kisses look clumsy, his smiles are forced and his body language screams uneasiness. Of course, it does not help that Stan clearly disapproves of his daughter’s decision to play house with an almost stranger, and he has no qualms letting them feel it. He either ignores Sam's attempts at establishing a relationship or makes derisive comments. Still, I think Stan’s hostile behaviour is quite understandable. His daughter is in a fragile emotional state and Sam is not exactly the kind of boyfriend a father would choose for his daughter in this situation – a college drop-out with no prospects and obvious psychological problems of his own. It is only when Stan realises that Amelia is truly happy with Sam that he drops his judgmental attitude and makes an attempt to get to know Sam better, and from what little we see, I think Sam and Stan would eventually have gotten along like a house on fire.
However, the family get-together ends on a rather surprising note, when Amelia receives a phone call, informing her that her husband is alive, and I have to say, I did not see that one coming. I think this reveal opens up a row of new questions about the circumstances of Sam and Dean's reunion. I mean, in We Need To Talk About Kevin Sam left Amelia and drove up to Rufus’ old cabin where he met up with Dean, and at the time I assumed that Sam left because Dean managed to track him down and asked him to meet him there. However, if Don’s return was the trigger for Sam and Amelia’s break-up and Sam drove up to the cabin because he did not know where else to go, why was he not more surprised to find Dean there? And why was he so sure that Dean was, in fact, Dean and not an impostor of some kind? It really casts Sam and Dean’s reunion in the season opener in a completely new light. I also have to wonder if the fact that Don and Dean simultaneously returned to Amelia and Sam, respectively, is really a coincidence. The timing seems rather suspicious, and I ask myself if there is more to it than meets the eye.
I admit, these last couple of weeks I have not once seriously considered that Sam’s memories about Amelia might not be real, but Sam’s fervent speech about escaping into a dream world when life becomes too much, made me question the reliability of Sam’s memories for the first time – especially in light of the reveal about Dean’s erroneous memories just last episode. Of course, the dreamlike quality of the flashbacks gave cause for speculation about the reality of Sam’s memories right from the start, but the obvious parallels between Sam’s retreat into a civilian life with Amelia and Fred’s mental retreat into a cartoon world seem to substantiate those speculations further. Now, Sam is always incredibly vague when he talks about those first few months after Dean vanished, but from the little we do know it is obvious that he was incapable of coping with his loss in a level-headed manner. Only weeks prior to Dean’s disappearance Sam was terrified at the mere thought of losing Dean – the only person able to anchor him to reality – so the notion that Sam suffered from a mental breakdown when the unthinkable did happen does not seem too far-fetched in my opinion. In that context, there are two things worth noting about Sam’s flashbacks in Hunteri Heroici: Firstly, in the scene where Sam is doing the dishes with Stan, he starts to insistently rub the palm of his left hand at one point, a gesture very reminiscent of the time when he used pressure/pain on his left hand to dispel his hallucinations. Secondly, there is a strong emphasis on the fact that Sam and Amelia’s life is an utter mess, and that reminds me of Lucifer’s statement in Hello, Cruel World that Sam’s hallucinations have to be a mess or Sam would not believe that they were his life. All of this could indicate that Sam’s memories are not actually real – or, you know, it could simply mean that I read way too much into this.
While I would be thrilled beyond belief, if the writers would link Sam’s memories of his time with Amelia to his mental health problems in S7, the theory that Amelia herself is just one of Sam’s mental-break induced hallucinations is rather untenable. I mean, we know for a fact that Amelia is a real person, because she appears outside of Sam’s flashbacks, twice. First in the season opener, where Sam leaves her behind when he drives to Rufus’ cabin, and then again in Blood Brother, where Sam searches for information about Amelia on the internet. However, that does not necessarily exclude the possibility that Sam’s memories of his time with Amelia are unreliable. For example, it is possible that he knows her, but that the extent of their relationship is just a figment of his imagination. It is also possible that, just like Dean’s memories, Sam’s are sound for the most part and only a selective few of them are imaginary. And I still do not rule out the possibility that Naomi messed with Sam’s memories in order to protect her own agenda either. Of course, all this is pure speculation, and it is equally as possible that Sam’s story is exactly what it seems. Maybe Dean’s disappearance was just the last straw to break the camel’s back; maybe Sam simply could not cope with another stroke of fate and so he ran, until he found something to hold onto; maybe he needed to escape into the illusion of safety for a while in order to heal enough to make a start on looking for Dean, just like Dean needed to be with Lisa and Ben in order to go on with his life after Sam’s death. Admittedly, this last scenario appeals to me the least, even though I am able to rationalise Sam’s actions, but I still think we are far from knowing Sam’s whole story yet, so I hold out hope that a better explanation will come along eventually.
What else is noteworthy:
(1) You know, I start to wonder if maybe there is a rule that says Sam cannot be present when Dean and Castiel have a conversation. I mean, why does the heart-to-heart between Dean and Castiel have to take place while Sam is out and about, doing a significant part of the legwork for their case on his own? Similarly, last week Dean deliberately excluded Sam from his talk with Castiel for no discernible reason. After all, he already told Sam that he felt guilty for failing Castiel, so he had nothing to hide from him. Besides, if Sam had been present when Castiel showed Dean just how wrongly he remembered things between them, it would have given the brothers a starting point for a dialogue about similar misperceptions in their own relationship. Anyway, it is rather common that Sam, Dean and Castiel split up when they work together – with Dean & Castiel on one side and Sam on the other – and that undercuts the feeling that they are an actual team. Moreover, whenever Castiel is around, there is barely any interaction between Sam and Dean. With other characters, the writers seem perfectly capable of balancing the character dynamics. For example, when Bobby or Garth join the brothers on a hunt, it is never at the expense of quality time between Sam and Dean, and they usually interact with both brothers in equal measure. I really wished the writers would manage to do the same with Castiel as well, as it would make his presence a lot more enjoyable for me. That said, there is one thing I truly love about Castiel’s collaboration with Sam and Dean here, namely the way his cluelessness highlights Sam and Dean’s competence as hunters. Those moments at the morgue or during the witness interview, where Dean proudly points out Sam’s superior skills to Castiel, really warm my heart. ♥
(2) I know I have said it before, but I think it bears repeating: The complete lack of an actual reconciliation process between Castiel and Dean makes their current amiable interaction extremely frustrating to watch for me. I mean, we went from Dean angrily yelling at Castiel in Survival of The Fittest to Dean hugging Castiel in What’s Up, Tiger Mommy without any kind of adjustment period, and the fact that the writers simply returned Dean and Castiel’s relationship to the pre-S6 status without so much as a clarifying conversation between them irritates me to such a degree that scenes like the heart-to-heart between Dean and Castiel do nothing but aggravate me, regardless of their actual content. And little moments like Dean’s statement that he is thrilled to have Castiel back simply do not ring true for me under these circumstances. Overall, the writers went to great lengths to draw parallels between Sam and Castiel’s storylines, but where earning Dean’s forgiveness is concerned, Castiel seems to get preferential treatment for no discernible in-canon reason. The writers took shortcuts in the brothers’ relationship with Castiel before, but they really dropped the ball on this one. It seems to me like they want to have their cake and eat it, too. On the one hand, they do not want to let go of the character because he is a fan favourite, but on the other hand they cannot be bothered to actually give his storylines the attention they would need to make them work – and in the long run that is damaging not only to Castiel’s character, but also to Sam and Dean’s.
(3) The episode’s general theme of escaping into a dream world when facing reality seems too difficult to bear extends to Castiel as well. In Castiel’s case it is the inability of facing the devastation he caused in heaven, and he tries to escape by following in Sam and Dean’s footsteps and become a hunter. Now, while I do not doubt that Castiel genuinely wants to atone by helping people, it is clear that throwing himself into the hunt is also a means to get out of his own head for a while, and that is a very Winchester way of dealing with things. After all, Sam and Dean tend to throw themselves into the hunt as well, when they feel unable to confront their bigger issues. Of course, Castiel is just as out of place in the hunting world as Sam is in the normal world, not least because he simply does not seem to grasp the basic concept of human interaction, and in the end he takes a page from Sam’s book and realises that he has to stop running and confront his guilt head-on. Naturally, things are never easy and Castiel’s intention to return to heaven and make things right with his fellow angels is thwarted by Naomi, thus forcing him to make a new choice about what he wants to do with his life – and maybe that is an opportunity as well; an opportunity to truly define who he is, when he is not an emissary of heaven or Sam and Dean’s third wheel. By the way, I am a tad puzzled that rather than telling Castiel to return to Sam and Dean, Naomi tells him to do what he wants to do. What happened to Castiel spying on the brothers so he can report back to her?
(4) I admit, I am not a huge fan of John’s character, but I still find myself appreciative of the many references to John in this episode, mainly because I really like it when the show remembers its own history. I love the fact that Dean still uses John’s journal, even though he surely knows its contents by heart by now, and Castiel’s compliment regarding John’s writing is quite amusing, given that Dean complained about his father’s writing back in Asylum. I also love that Sam brings up John’s military background in an attempt to bond with Amelia’s father. Speaking of which, at first it struck me as rather odd that Sam would tell Stan the Impala was John’s car, because I believe both brothers have long come to think of the Impala as Dean’s. However, when Stan comments to Sam on the Impala, his general hostility up to that point has made Sam visibly uncomfortable around him, and since mentioning Dean would inevitably have steered the conversation towards Sam’s loss, it makes sense that he would choose to avoid the topic – he is simply not ready to show that kind of vulnerability around Stan at that point. Once the tension between them makes way for a more cordial relationship though, Sam brings up Dean on his own accord.
In conclusion: Like with so many episodes this season, I would not say that Hunteri Heroici is a bad episode, but it fails to engage me beyond the moments that pertain to Sam’s storyline. While the episode has some great character moments, they feel somewhat misplaced amidst the over-the-top humour – that is especially true for Sam’s flashbacks – and that affects my enjoyment to some degree. I think the cartoon-world premise has great comedic potential, and it would probably have worked fine for me if the writers had committed to the idea of a straightforward comedy episode, but this odd mix of the emotional and the absurd is just not particularly convincing to me. But well, I guess that has more to do with my own preferences and less with actual problems in the writing.
no subject
Excellent points and I agree with them all. Amelia is certainly real. What Sam remembers is his perception I am sure, but I really don't think there's something "hidden" there (unfortunately). But I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
I think you hit on the head the main problem with Dean and Cas's relationship (for me). It seems to jump about with no continuity to where they either left off or even just what happened in a previous episode. I spend a lot of time hand waving it because I don't have the energy to make it work the way I try to make Sam and Dean (and their seeming lack of continuity) work.
And it's weird to me that Dean and Cas have these super serious conversations (that I mostly seem to tune out of) when Sam is not there. One minute Sam seems to be part of "team free will" and then it's as though Sam can't be privy to these because he's not part of that "bond". IDK.
I think I am just hoping it will all make sense soon. That somehow the penny will drop and all the pieces will slot together. But,um...I have a nagging feeling they won't. :(
We shall see I suppose. ;)
no subject
Yep! There is no rhyme or reason to Dean and Castiel's relationship, and usually I handwave that as well, but this time I am really livid, mainly on Sam's behalf. Sam worked his ass off to get back into Dean's good graces and earn his forgiveness, but it seems Castiel doesn't need that, even though his transgressions exceed Sam's by far. Ugh!
One minute Sam seems to be part of "team free will" and then it's as though Sam can't be privy to these because he's not part of that "bond".
Yeah, that annoys me to no end as well, and that is why I am usually unhappy when Castiel is around. I mean, it works better in episodes like Mommy Dearest, where the addition of Bobby results in a better balance in the character dynamics, but when it is only Sam, Dean and Castiel, I always feel that Sam is excluded and I hate that.
I think I am just hoping it will all make sense soon. That somehow the penny will drop and all the pieces will slot together. But,um...I have a nagging feeling they won't. :(
Yeah, if Dean's storyline is indicative of how the writers are handling the brothers' emotional arcs this season, we probably would be wise to not to expect too much for Sam's storyline either. I mean, the writers made no effort whatsoever to actually map out Dean's emotional development in purgatory and Dean's initial symptoms of PTSD vanished after one or two episodes. So, why would they make an effort with Sam's emotional arc? We are 8 episodes in, and we are still none the wiser what exactly Sam and Dean's arcs are about this season. Perception, sure, but so far I feel that it doesn't really come together in a meaningful manner. I just hope the second half of the season is better.
no subject
I totally agree about the tonal shifts within this episode - it simply didn't know what it wanted to be and therefore failed to commit to any of the possibilities, to its own detriment. And I am beyond tired of Sam's flashbacks now, not so much because of the story being told in them but because flashbacks are a narrative device that should only ever be used sparingly, for effect, not to tell a major character story over half a season (or more - please God, not more). Constantly cutting back to flashbacks really disrupts the flow of any story being told in the present, especially when (as is often the case) the link between those two stories is fairly tenuous - it brings the momentum of the story to a juddering halt. So between that and the see-sawing from wacky to deep&meaningful...no wonder this episode had problems!
I've seen theories elsewhere about Sam's Amelia memories not being real. I can see the evidence for and against, but the bottom line is that this story is increasingly feeling like an epic fail on the part of the writers. It is reaching the point where it no longer matters what twist they pull out of the bag in the end, they have failed to tell a coherent and engaging character story along the way. Keeping the viewers guessing is one thing - constantly confusing them with character choices that don't make sense or don't hold together is something else entirely. I'm far from convinced that when we come to look back on Sam's story with hindsight, it will all suddenly make sense - I hope they prove me wrong, but based on the evidence so far, I can't see it.
Oh, this is turning into an epic whinge! I'm just so frustrated with the writing of the show this season, I could spit!
if Don’s return was the trigger for Sam and Amelia’s break-up and Sam drove up to the cabin because he did not know where else to go, why was he not more surprised to find Dean there? And why was he so sure that Dean was, in fact, Dean and not an impostor of some kind? It really casts Sam and Dean’s reunion in the season opener in a completely new light
I've read elsewhere that there was a podcast in which Robert Singer stated that when Sam left Amelia in the season opener, he was just going off to the cabin to get away for a bit, which was something he was in the habit of doing. Having not heard the podcast myself, I don't know if it's true or not, but if it is - another epic fail on the part of the writers because that absolutely was not clear from the episode. Viewers should not have to look up supporting material posted by the writers online in order to make sense of the story. Gah.
I'm actually reaching the point where I feel like the current need for all shows to have 'arcs' is becoming damaging, because they really struggle to develop and write those arcs effectively - too much emphasis on needing to come up with some epic angsty long-running arcs for all the characters, instead of just allowing their development to grow organically out of their situation as it goes along.
Totally agree that Sam said the Impala was his father's car because he wasn't ready to talk to Amelia's dad about his supposedly dead brother at that stage - who'd ever have imagined that we'd see the day when John was the safer subject for Sam...
Oh, I've ranted long enough - back to work!
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I miss those days, too. Actually, I wanted to ask you for a chat last Sunday, but then I got distracted and forgot all about it until it was too late! And this week I have some friends over from Friday to Sunday, so we'll probably have no opportunity to chat either. Hmm, maybe the week after, a pre-Christmas chat before I head home to my family?
I also miss the days when I felt genuinely engaged by the show. :( I wish it weren't such a mess this season
I hear you. I don't think I've ever felt less engaged by a season than this one. I had rough patches with the show before, but at least then I was feeling passionate about the show's issues, this season my lack of enthusiasm rather results in disappointed resignation.
flashbacks are a narrative device that should only ever be used sparingly, for effect, not to tell a major character story over half a season
I know! I mean, really, what was the point of reuniting Sam and Dean when they flash back to the past year every frikking five minutes! Ugh. They really should have told Sam and Dean's stories during their time apart in 'real time'.
It is reaching the point where it no longer matters what twist they pull out of the bag in the end, they have failed to tell a coherent and engaging character story along the way.
I couldn't agree more. Even if there is a huge plot twist in Sam's story at some point, it will never change the fact that they wasted almost an entire half-season on inconsistent and incoherent storytelling for the character. It might soothe my Sam-loving heart if his actions are cast in a more favourable light later on, but it doesn't change the poor planning and structuring of the season.
I've read elsewhere that there was a podcast in which Robert Singer stated that when Sam left Amelia in the season opener he was just going off to the cabin to get away for a bit
Huh?!? That makes no sense whatsoever, especially in light of the information that Sam and Amelia split up because of Don's return. Stupid writers!
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Nope. But let's face it, very little about the ongoing storylines this season makes any real sense - the various storylines seem to be jumping around all over the place instead of developing organically, and when you think about the information we've been given about the characters at various points in time...that information doesn't really fit together when you try to assemble it chronologically. It's all just really, really bad storytelling and some really, really bad decisions made behind the scenes.
what was the point of reuniting Sam and Dean when they flash back to the past year every frikking five minutes
And what was the point of reuniting them when they've had barely any coherent storyline together all season, beyond the artificial divide created by the whim of the writers rather than developing organically out of the situation we left them in? I just don't understand this season at all. I've complained in the past about SN's habit of retro-active storytelling because it's an approach that has hurt the show before, but this season is taking it to an extreme. Building a mystery that will be paid off later can be an effective narrative tool, as long as that mystery is well told along the way, with engaging characters and installments that standalone as entertaining and coherent episodes that make sense as well as building up the ongoing mystery. So the bottom line there, I suppose, is that the show is addicted to a narrative structure that it has never been very good at!
The season as a whole is just so bad, the characters jumping around all over the place, that I can't even enjoy the bits that are good. :(
I would love to sit down for a proper pre-Christmas chat before we both get swallowed up by family stuff! :) So maybe we'll confirm that next week. In the meantime, maybe we could vent a bit more frustration at each other via PM or something, once you've seen the latest episode. I don't want to engage in show discussion in VIP chat.
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Uh-huh. Because there is nothing to understand. I really have the feeling that Carver has no idea what he is doing. None. At all. I start to wonder if maybe the episodes that made Carver famous in fandom (Mystery Spot, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Point of No Return) - episodes that demonstrated great insight into the characters' psychology and interpersonal dynamics - have beforehand been mapped out for him by Kripke and Gamble. Maybe he is capable as a writer if he gets the direction and focus dictated to him by a good showrunner, but has difficulties to create that direction and focus himself. In comparison to what Carver delivered so far even that short stretch of episodes early in S5, where the characterisation for Sam and Dean derailed for a while, seems harmless. So far, S8 is really the worst season the show has ever delivered - by a mile! I even take the brothers' bleak and destructive journey in S4 over this mess, at least in S4 the characters made sense.
So the bottom line there, I suppose, is that the show is addicted to a narrative structure that it has never been very good at!
It depends. I think it worked pretty well in S2 and in S6. But what the writers did in S8 so far really undermines the characters and that never sits well with me.
In the meantime, maybe we could vent a bit more frustration at each other via PM or something, once you've seen the latest episode. I don't want to engage in show discussion in VIP chat.
I won't be able to watch the episode before tomorrow afternoon, but I can PM you once I've seen it. I can understand your hesitation to engage in a SPN discussion on BF. And let's keep Sunday the 16th in mind for a pre-Christmas chat. *hugs*
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S2 really doesn't count as retro-active storytelling because there although we knew that Dean was carrying a big secret around, there was no big jump in the timeline, we followed the course of that secret through half the season to the reveal, saw the impact it had both while it was being kept and when it was out in the open. Not the same thing as jumping the characters forward and not allowing viewers to understand their developmental skip until later. I'll give you S6, because the soulless Sam arc worked pretty well for me - but as I recall there was a huge outcry in fandom about it at the time, as everyone struggled to understand why he was behaving that way, so it was a dangerous game to play. The pay-off on that occasion just about made the damage worth while. I just can't see them pulling that off here, though. Whatever they come up with it going to be too little too late.
A PM conversation would be good - and will definitely pencil in Sunday 16th and hope nothing else crops up! :)
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Yeah, say about the previous seasons what you will, they all had their problems, but we are nine episodes into S8 and it is still not clear what Sam and Dean's emotional arcs are actually about. That, at least, never happened before. And the flashbacks are largely wasted instead of providing actual insight into the characters we see in S8. And since all we have about what's happening in the characters' heads is conjecture and assumptions, and there is no common thread to hold the season together, it is difficult to see where it is all going!
I'll give you S6, because the soulless Sam arc worked pretty well for me
Yes, because they quickly moved forward with it, instead of artificially drawing the mystery out. The writers established something is wrong within the first four episodes and in the next three they step-by-step revealed that Sam was soulless. And they kept the focus on the brothers the entire time, 6.04 notwithstanding, instead of being all over the place. And that even though they established new 'families' for Sam and Dean, namely Lisa and Ben and the Campbells, respectively, as well. But in S6 those new characters served to bring Sam and Dean's relationship into better focus instead of distracting from them. Man, Carver really should have taken a page from Gamble's book in that regard.
will definitely pencil in Sunday 16th and hope nothing else crops up! :)
It's a date, then! :)
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I think maybe it could have worked as a serious episode within an absurdist framework - after all, Mystery Spot runs on a bizarre premise, and I felt the drama worked there - but I don't think it quite does, as is. There's something a bit off, thematically. Cartoons are mindless escapism, sure, but they are brutally violent. The humour in them (or so I understand; I hated roadrunner) comes from the fact that the violence is too silly to be real. I feel like there are things there you could say about burned out hunters and a need to escape that doesn't quite mesh with playing house and having awkward conversations with potential in-laws.
... Actually, now I think of it, I think this needed to be a Dean story about the simplicity of killing monsters in purgatory that were already dead - and how it isn't exactly like that.
It really casts Sam and Dean’s reunion in the season opener in a completely new light. I also have to wonder if the fact that Don and Dean simultaneously returned to Amelia and Sam, respectively, is really a coincidence. The timing seems rather suspicious, and I ask myself if there is more to it than meets the eye.
The flashback scenes were my favourite part of the episode. Sam's discomfort - even misery, at some points - grounded the hints they've been dropping all season about his state of mind. I'm pleased that they're finally working some concrete mystery into Sam's story. Of course, it all depends on how they answer these questions - but the fact that they're out there gives me hope they're taking this somewhere interesting.
I admit, these last couple of weeks I have not once seriously considered that Sam’s memories about Amelia might not be real, but Sam’s fervent speech about escaping into a dream world when life becomes too much, made me question the reliability of Sam’s memories for the first time – especially in light of the reveal about Dean’s erroneous memories just last episode.
I hadn't believed that Sam's past was literally a dream either, but this episode really seemed to be pushing the idea. The Born-Again Identity was so deeply disappointing to me that I admit to finding the idea attractive - although, as you say, it can't all have been false. I'd just really like it if they made something of the end of season seven.
You know, I start to wonder if maybe there is a rule that says Sam cannot be present when Dean and Castiel have a conversation.
I think the trouble is that Castiel originally developed as a deceptive replacement for Sam - effectively Dean's Ruby. Of course that wouldn't preclude him becoming an interesting character ... but if they do that, Castiel's presence will no longer be 'fan service'. It's the similarity in the two relationships - the long looks, the tearful conversations - that makes him a favourite. Sam without the complexity. Sam can't be in those scenes because Castiel is Sam. I prefer the real one. :)
Castiel’s compliment regarding John’s writing is quite amusing, given that Dean complained about his father’s writing back in Asylum.
Aw. He just said John writes like Yoda. Maybe Yoda has lovely handwriting. :)
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Me, too. But as my friend
Sam can't be in those scenes because Castiel is Sam.
Ouch, just reading that sentence hurts my brother-loving heart, even though I know what you're trying to say. Of course, I would say that the Dean-Castiel relationship is nothing like the Sam-Dean relationship. At all! I never get a feeling of true intimacy from Dean and Castiel's interaction, no matter how often the writers tell us that they share a special bond. Maybe I am dense, but I just don't feel it.
Aw. He just said John writes like Yoda. Maybe Yoda has lovely handwriting.
Hmmm, what are the chances that a creature that has three claw-like fingers instead of a hand has a readable handwriting. *g*
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That's fair. Honestly, at the moment, I'm trying to be forgiving and hopeful - because otherwise I am sad and frustrated, and that's no fun. It happens sometimes, that a story pulls out a twist so remarkable and interesting that it recontextualises everything that came before and significantly diminishes problems. Likely? Well, no. But there's one episode to go until mid season, so I can dream a while. :)
Of course, I would say that the Dean-Castiel relationship is nothing like the Sam-Dean relationship. At all! I never get a feeling of true intimacy from Dean and Castiel's interaction, no matter how often the writers tell us that they share a special bond.
Oh, I hope I didn't sound like I thought it was. I just mean it offers a shell of that relationship. I agree with what you're saying. There's no real reason for them to be close. I just think that part of the problem is that developing their friendship in a meaningful way would strip that shell away, and the writers are afraid that that would diminish his popularity. If you don't like how complex and difficult the show makes questions of love, loyalty and forgiveness - I suppose I could see how the 'they're close because they just are' setup could be attractive.
Hmmm, what are the chances that a creature that has three claw-like fingers instead of a hand has a readable handwriting. *g*
To my great regret, I sat through all the prequels. If the wizened little muppet can do acrobatic fantasy sword fighting, I wouldn't say calligraphy is out of the question. :)
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ROFL I hear you. I'd rather spend the hiatus hoping that eventually the writers will get their act together and deliver a satisfying twist in the story. There is still time to rant and rave against the writers next year.
I hope I didn't sound like I thought it was. I just mean it offers a shell of that relationship.
No, don't worry. I understood what you wanted to say. Just reading a sentence like that, even in context, kind of activates all my Castiel resentment issues. LOL
To my great regret, I sat through all the prequels.
Oh my, why would you do that to yourself? I only saw the first one and didn't bother with the rest. I am huge fan of the original trilogy and I will pretend for the rest of my life that nothing came after that. LOL